51³Ô¹Ï

 

Deborah Lyons 00:00

It's possibly one of the biggest tragedies I've ever personally experienced. Because we initially heard from the Taliban that they were going to be respectful of women's rights. That they were going to allow girls back to school. That they were going to allow the women back to work. But as time went on you began to see that this seemed to be an empty vessel.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:33

From the 51³Ô¹Ï I'm Melissa Fleming. Welcome to Awake at Night. To be in Afghanistan in August 2021 when the Taliban took over Kabul must have been such a shocking experience. My colleague, the Canadian diplomat, Deborah Lyons, was there in the middle of it as Special Representative of the Secretary-General for Afghanistan, and also head of the 51³Ô¹Ï Assistance Mission in Afghanistan.

She has just finished her posting and has been telling me what it was like.

Deborah, you arrived in Afghanistan in March 2020 at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic. And you were also in position when the Taliban took over in August 2021. Did you ever imagine when you started there that you would be dealing with such turbulent events?

 

Deborah Lyons 01:41

Well, I guess the answer to that would be partly no, because when I accepted the job COVID was not quite on [the] horizon.

I returned to Canada on March 4th to get ready to go to Afghanistan. And then COVID hit within a week after that, as you know, and actually the UN building in New York sort of emptied out. But in terms of the turbulence related to August and the Taliban, keep in mind that the agreement between the US and the Taliban was signed at the end of February of 2020. So, we knew we were going into a period where the Taliban would either be part of a coalition government or would even possibly form the full government.

So, I knew that was a moment in time that I would be witnessing. And frankly, I wanted to be part of it.

I wanted to because of my time in Afghanistan previously, my love of the country. But also, I think as a female I wanted to be there working through the issues. I don't think we expected though¡­ I don't think anyone expected the chaos, the sadness, the carnage, the enormous shock of what happened in August.

It was an incredible time to be there. I have to say, every day was a full day. But it was also a day where you could really feel the importance of the UN on the ground.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:13

Okay, so you just said that you knew that the Taliban takeover was somehow inevitable, but the way it came was shocking and surprising. Can you describe where you were when it was clear that this was not going to go as people expected?

 

Deborah Lyons 03:35

Well, once the Taliban had a sense that the foreign troops were definitely leaving at a specific time, then their commitment to the negotiations really ceased at that stage. And we began to see as the Spring unfolded really a movement of the Taliban throughout the North, throughout the West. The collapse of districts one after another. And then by July, we began to see the collapse of the provincial capitals. By of course the end of July and early into August, that meant Kabul was more vulnerable.

On August 15, when things really collapsed, I was in the compound. I was organizing our folks to move to a consolidated compound. We were expecting to do that in the process of two or three days. Instead, we ended up having to do it within hours. We spent a lot of time in traffic jams in Kabul with a lot of other people trying to move from one location to another. Trying to make sure that all of our staff were safe.

The change was so fast, and I think came with such a shock that people really did have to adjust very, very quickly. There were several sleepless nights, needless to say, as we ensured that our compounds were safe. We established new communications with this new security that was now in place. And even that, Melissa, was challenging, because the Taliban themselves did not have a strong command and control in Kabul. And so, there were times when we were dealing with entities who actually were not truly Taliban, had not been given the authority from the Taliban to actually take control of our compounds. So, we had several days of a pretty dicey situation.

On the day of the collapse, I would say that many people went through a very traumatic experience as you move from one compound to the other. As you saw prisoners, who had been released from the prisons, walking freely on the street. When it was clear that even though those brave, brave Kabul police tried to direct traffic and move people safely, it was really quite a lawless environment. And people, quite rightly, I think were afraid and concerned about what was to come next.

Of course, for most people¡­ What most people saw was the drama, the horrific drama at the airport, as so many Afghans moved to try to get out of the country for fear of what they felt they would be facing with the Taliban. And that is what the world saw week after week for three weeks in August and early September. For us as the UN, we were both in our compound getting the work done that needed to be done, taking care of our national staff. And we also established a remote office in Kazakhstan working with the Kazakh authorities, so that we could continue to function with as many of our international staff as possible within a time-zone nearby, and continue to do the work that we needed to do while supporting the humanitarian workers, who were our frontline team who needed to be on the ground.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:13

Is there something from those days during the takeover - an incident that you can't forget that just is a picture in your mind of what it looks like and felt like to be in that upheaval that was taking place at the time?

 

Deborah Lyons 07:31

I think a couple of things. One, you know, visually.

I think it was just being on the street, being in a traffic situation where nobody was moving for hours. Knowing how vulnerable you were, how vulnerable everyone was. Having people come up with their AK-47s walking all around, not knowing who was really in charge, whether they were friend or foe.

When the prisons were released, we were all texting one another. And then you sort of look up and you see prisoners walking away because of where our compound was near one of the prisons. So, I think visually that moment. And you know, just being concerned for the people you had out in the vehicles on the street, in transit, trying to get from one location to the other.

I think also the feeling for the national staff. Knowing that this was their country, and they had been working so hard with us. And knowing that this was their country that was going through this dramatic change. And that agony and that pain, you know. I think feeling that was difficult.

I think many of us did not watch TV because it was not¡­ It didn't make sense to watch TV. It was just too disturbing, and it didn't really help you. But then getting all of the calls from friends and relatives in texts, and so forth, and not having time to answer them. You just did not have time in those moments of crises to respond to people. And yet you wanted to because you knew they were worried. And so, you know, people develop different techniques of having somebody else respond on their behalf. One relative who took care of all of the concerns that you were receiving.

I want to add this though. I want to say that I found it fascinating as a leader¡­ Two things. One is to be in an environment of what I referred to as collective fear. Everyone's afraid. Everyone's afraid. I'm talking to, you know, generals. I'm talking to colonels. I'm talking to security guys. I'm talking to people who've been in crisis situations before. I'm talking to some pretty hardened people. And no one knows what's going to come. It was the unpredictability. How will the Taliban behave when they have this full landscape? And I think people naturally go to a place of great horror. And then you have to kind of bring yourself back from that. You know everyone's feeling it. And yet you're trying to buffer it yourself because you've got to function.

Which brings me to the second point. And that is the ego of leadership. Knowing when you are not functioning as well as you should. I had two deputies who had both just returned from R&R. One had just returned a week before. And she was enormously capable at any time. But had just returned from a refreshing break. The other had returned the day of the collapse. Both of them extremely capable. I had been in mission for about three months at that point just because of the way things had gone. And so, I was obviously already worn down, but certainly ready to address the crisis that we had. But I found myself having to monitor. ¡®Okay, you only had two hours sleep last night. How good is your judgement? You were talking to the generals at, you know, 4 o'clock this morning, trying to figure out about airport access. You know, how good is your judgement?¡¯ And I think that as a leader¡­ And I don't know if female leaders do it more than male leaders. But you have to be continuingly monitoring yourself during a period of crisis. ¡®Am I functioning as well as I should be?¡¯ And you have to be brutally honest with yourself. And you have to say, ¡®Okay, I'm going to pass this to Ramiz. I'm going to pass this to Mette. They can handle this issue. I will handle another issue. They can handle the urgency of this one.¡¯ You've got to be very careful that you're not letting the ego of ¡®I can do everything. I can handle this. I'm going to be a great leader in this moment of crisis¡¯¡­ You have to be careful that that ego isn't driving you past the point of really solid judgement and solid reflection. And consideration of all of the inputs, enormous input that you're getting almost by the minute in that kind of an environment.

 

Melissa Fleming 12:24

So that was a recognition that you had at that time. And how were you handling things as the woman leader for the UN there?

 

 

 

Deborah Lyons 12:35

I think I was handling things as well as I could, and as well as one should in that kind of environment in that my priority was the staff and the UN staying and delivering.

I was well aware of the fact that I was a female leader at that moment in time. I was well aware of the fact that I knew I could manage us and lead us through it. I knew I had a great UN country team. I knew I had two strong deputies. And I knew that I was going to be honest with myself about where my strengths and my weaknesses were. And I think that you're really put to the test in a moment of crisis like that.

It came later when the Taliban formed their cabinet, and I began the political interface with them, that the drama of being a female leader, I think, became really poignant. And really, I would argue powerful.

I had many Taliban in the months after as we begin to establish a rapport with them. Which by the way, was essential in order for us to serve the Afghan people. And it took a lot of convincing, I have to say, to convince even some of the members of the UN Security Council that this was essential.

I would say that in those moments being a female leader was very, very, almost useful. Some of the Taliban leaders themselves said to me that one of the things they appreciated having the head of the UN at that moment be a woman, was that women have more feelings and are more compassionate. And they felt that I was very dedicated to Afghanistan and that I demonstrated that compassion. And that made them trust me and feel good about my intentions as the leader of the UN.

So, it's very interesting, right? how these things play out. I think you have to grab every advantage you might have. And if you think there are areas where you bring a weakness, then you have to find ways of compensating.

 

Melissa Fleming 14:52

That's interesting. Just before we go into that, because I think it would be really fascinating to hear what it was like as a leader of the UN, but also, particularly as a woman leader of the UN because some of the biggest issues, the most disturbing issues, were the issues that women and girls were faced with there. But I just wanted to ask. I believe you had a seminal event in your personal life happening - the marriage of your daughter - exactly at the time the Taliban took over. How did you reconcile that? And how did you¡­? I mean it would be an event that no one could possibly ever want to miss.

 

Deborah Lyons 15:36

Well, thanks for raising it. Because it really was a moment where I felt like the gods were personally testing me both personally and professionally.

So okay, I have one child - a magnificent, wonderful daughter. Her wedding had already been moved twice because of COVID, as we all know at the time. And we had on September 5th, I think it was 250 guests coming to this wonderful wedding that had been planned for quite some time.

The Taliban took over Kabul, I think, on August 15th, August 16th. So, I had a job to do. I mean, I was supposed to have left Kabul actually on the 14th or 15th. And I kept delaying it. And of course, once the collapse took place, I delayed it completely. But I knew I was going to go to my daughter's wedding. I knew I wasn't going to miss it. And I kept reassuring my bosses in New York and most particularly the Secretary-General that I was going to fly in, show up at the wedding and get back on the ground as fast as I could, which is exactly what I did.

I think I was at the wedding for three days - the party the night before, the wedding that day and the breakfast the next morning. But what was funny is, you know, literally, I'm finishing a session. I mean, this is very personal. But I'm finishing a session with New York on, you know, the security of our compound and finishing a session with Kabul. And then I go right into literally a session with a couple of stylists, who had gone and done some shopping for me and said, ¡®Here are the dresses, which one do you want?¡¯ And so, some of the people that were meeting with me on security just stayed and said, ¡®Oh, that dress? Nope, nope, that dress? No, I like the colour of that.¡¯ And we literally chose the clothes I was going to wear from our satellite office between two meetings on security and one with our folks in Kabul.

And strangely enough, everything fit when I got there the night before. And off we went to the wedding. We had the wedding. Was an incredible moment. Obviously, everybody wanted to speak to me about Afghanistan at the wedding. I think 250 people approached me to talk about my version of Afghanistan. But I managed to get to my daughter's wedding. I knew I wasn't going to miss it. But it added, of course, to the drama and to the sense of stress and pressure. Because I couldn't let my job down.

I couldn't let my role as leader down. And I couldn't let my daughter down. And you know, we just make these things work. We turn ourselves inside out and we make these things work. And it worked.

 

Melissa Fleming 18:17

I think there would be people who would have chosen their work over the daughter's wedding and probably would have regretted it the rest of their lives. So, is there a lesson maybe from that experience? You came back. I'm sure you were missed for those few days. But¡­

 

Deborah Lyons 18:38

You know, again, this comes back to the ego of leadership as well.

You know, I mean, I had two extremely capable deputies. I was dispensable. By the time I left to go to my daughter's wedding, you know, almost three weeks had passed. Two and a half weeks had passed. We had stabilized. I would certainly not have been going to my daughter's wedding if there had been blood on the streets. If there are things that I needed to be on the ground doing.

I think, you know, it also comes back to your values and what matters to you. I mean, my job has always mattered to me deeply. I mean, my daughter can certainly tell you. She's travelled with me all over the world. And not letting people down matters. But you also have to grab those few moments of joy in life. Because otherwise, why is the rest of it even worth it?

And we did it. But yeah, I think there are people and I know that there were some people who were dismayed and found it shocking that I left for that short period of time. I went back and went full swing into the work that we had to do. And continued to do that for the following, you know, 10-11 months.

It's very hard for me to be out of Afghanistan, I have to say. I had promised myself I was going to do the job for two years and I stayed a little beyond two years. I'd love to be back there, Melissa. But I will find another way to get back to Afghanistan. I'm not finished with Afghanistan. I'm certainly not finished with the Afghan people. It's the country I've lived in longest next to my own country [which] is Canada.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:29

Your top concern, and your top demand has been around women and girls and their ability to access education. Their ability to work. Their ability to circulate in society. How shocked were you? How dismayed were you? How frustrated were you to see all of those gains just disappear overnight?

 

Deborah Lyons 20:59

Well, it's possibly one of the biggest tragedies I've ever personally experienced. Because we initially heard from the Taliban that they were going to be respectful of women's rights. That they were going to allow girls back to school. That they were going to allow the women back to work even in the civil service. But as time went on, you began to see that this seemed to be an empty vessel.

We could never¡­ The conditions remained elusive. They were never defined as much as we tried to get them to define it.

And then as we moved into 2021, things became even more severe with young females who were protesting in the street being arrested. With the decision not to have girls go back to school in March. With an actual declaration by the supreme leader, and the council to not allow them back to school as the new school year opened at the end of March. And then, of course, the decree on the mahram, the male companion, the male relative who needed to accompany women. Which of course meant that for all of our female staff, and for those very important female health care workers, how do you get out and do your job if you have to have a male relative with you at all times?

So just incredible barriers being set against women really being able to contribute.

And then of course, the decision on the face covering. The decree that came in May. That moment, that day, when I read that decree, I felt that the battle was really on. And we were going to have a long, hard struggle to try to regain that progress that women had achieved in the previous couple of decades. Not even just in the previous couple of decades. I mean, many of the things that are being put in place right now do not fit with Afghan traditions.

Afghan women in some locations have worn burkas. In some locations have covered their faces. But not the majority of Afghan women throughout the country. Afghan women have covered their heads, but they have certainly had their face exposed. They've been doctors, lawyers, prosecutors. You know, what is happening right now is truly a tragedy.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:26

Did you ever speak to¡­? I know you have a lot of national staff, many of them women. What was it like to talk to them about what was happening to their rights?

 

Deborah Lyons 23:38

It was incredibly painful. There were lots of tears, not just from the Afghan women themselves. But our, even our own country directors, who would be telling you the stories of their female staff with whom they had met to discuss yet another restriction, and listen to the stories of fear, of anxiety, of despair that these women were feeling.

And also, some of our male staff who were so depressed about their daughters not being able to be educated. I would have drivers say to me, ¡®Ma'am, please help me. Tell me what to say to my daughter. She can't go to school. She cries every day.¡¯ I mean, the stories are pretty, pretty, pretty awful.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 24:32

When you think from your perspective now a few weeks out of the job. What is keeping you awake at night most about Afghanistan and what it's going through?

 

Deborah Lyons 24:48

Well, what's definitely keeping me awake at night about Afghanistan specifically is the lack of openness in the Taliban leadership right now to inclusivity to women in particular, but also to other ethnic representation. Because those two issues will eventually isolate Afghanistan from the international community, and will cause, I worry, implosion within the country itself.

I am more concerned about that than I am about the rise of terrorist groups in Afghanistan.

You must have good governance. And if that governance is lacking, the people suffer. And right now, in these two areas - women's rights and inclusivity - the Taliban are going in the wrong direction.

On a global sense, what keeps me awake at night is this hate speech that has been developing in the last 10 years. And I think this is where we need to all be focusing is trying to find a more positive narrative. A warmer more compassionate narrative. Whether it's in Afghanistan or wherever, that everyone can feel engages them.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:24

I wonder¡­ I read that you actually are one of nine siblings. Is that where this notion of having to live in unity and get along perhaps comes from? Tell me a bit about your childhood.

 

Deborah Lyons 26:41

It's so interesting you should raise that. One of nine, and I have 55 first cousins. And so yeah, I did get to appreciate the benefit of a large clan, you know. We could put together our own band when we had a family party. We had enough musicians and people.

But I think also I grew up in rural Canada in the 60s and 70s. People were poor. My generation, we all went to university. Our parents put an emphasis on education, but none of them had been to university. We were able to go to university because the government put in place a student loan programme.

You know, I saw how good government gives people such greater opportunity to contribute. I also saw how people come together to help one another. I mean, I do remember as a young child when someone's house would burn down, people didn't have money for insurance, and so forth in those days. The whole community would come together to help them rebuild. And people would look after them until that building was constructed by people in the community.

So, you know, when you do that on a national level, or an international level, I don't I don't think it's that different. It's us coming together in whatever form we can to help people out of tragedy. And that's, I think, I learned it early on. We had a lot of sickness in our family. I saw the different, what were they called, you know, civil society groups. But groups like, you know, Rotary and Legion and Lions. Different kinds of groups that were set up. I saw them collect money so that my parents could take my sister who had cancer, and [was] very, very ill, take her to a hospital in Montreal, which seemed like the other end of the earth. And these community groups did that. They got the money so that my mother could take the train. And my sister now is a very active film producer in Los Angeles and survived a very rare form of cancer at the time.

So, you know, when you see that as a child, when you see how people come together and help one another, it can't help but impact you.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:03

I wonder about just bringing up your daughter as an international person. You shifted every few years. How was that for her?

 

Deborah Lyons 29:15

I'll give you one little story. I remember when we were getting ready to go to Japan. And this just goes to show you how incredible children are.

So that would have been a good 20 years ago or more. And I remember saying to her, ¡®Honey, do you think you're going to miss your friends and everything?¡¯ And I remember her stomping for a moment saying, ¡®Well, Mum, do they have internet in Japan?¡¯ And I, ¡®Certainly have. Definitely!¡¯  ¡®No, no, it'll be fine then.¡¯

And I remember just looking and thinking even I was having more difficulty than she was.

No look, I think as a parent one of the things that we must do is to constantly be in tune with our children. Where are they at? Is this a weak moment in their life? Is this a strong moment in their life? How are they doing with their teachers? Is this the right fit? Is this the right mix? So, I think as a parent, and I only had one. My poor mother had nine. Oh, my goodness! But you know, I think that you are always you're always testing that. You're always trying to watch for their signals.

And so, I think I guided our movements based on where I felt she was. For instance, I didn't go to Afghanistan until she was finished university. Because frankly I didn't want her studying for exams and worrying about her mother. I mean, you know, things like that.

But no, I was acutely aware of how much these experiences abroad were going to build her as a person. And I'm very happy to say that that's exactly what has resulted. She's extremely competent. She's a very strong human rights advocate. She's a very good person with a big heart. And I'm very proud. And I think that much of that came from those international experiences. From seeing people, both who had a lot and seeing people who had nothing. And understanding the larger world.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:10

Beyond your daughter, what message would you give to young people considering a career in public service?

 

Deborah Lyons 31:18

Oh, wow. You know, do it with a passion. Find issues that are compelling for you and drive as hard as you can. Find good leaders. Find some tough leaders because they'll teach you. Always assess impact. Are you having impact? Don't be afraid of criticism. In fact, embrace it. The more you climb the ladder, the more criticism you should be open to embracing. Understand you're not the only brain in the room. Understand that there is everyone around the table with a capacity to contribute something. Be open to that.

So, I would say go after the public service. The world needs you now. And it needs all of us frankly.

 

Melissa Fleming 32:10

Just finally, what do you like to do in your downtime? Are there any hobbies you have that relax you or inspire you?

 

Deborah Lyons 32:22

Okay. So, water.

I grew up on the Atlantic Ocean on the edge of the Atlantic Ocean. I'm always around water. I think Afghanistan was the only landlocked country I lived in. So, I just bought a boat. So, I'm going to be spending some time on this silly little boat. I'm a person, an avid sailor. I love sailing, but I think my bones have gotten a little too old for sailing. So, this is actually a motorized boat, but it'll be fun.

And I love being in the woods. I said I need to get back to Canada and talk to the trees and, you know, walk in the woods, lose my way, find my soul. That kind of thing.

I love music. I love reading like everything else.

And mostly though, you know, honestly, Melissa, what I love most - I find work satisfying and relaxing. I find that sense of impact and accomplishment. I love that exhaustion at the end of the day. That relaxes me because I feel that I've done something meaningful.

So, I've got to try to figure out, this is not retirement, this is retreading. And I haven't quite figured out where those treads are going to take me yet. So, I'm going to, you know, spend a little time floating on the water and think through other ways of contributing and that will relax me.

 

Melissa Fleming 33:57

I very much look forward to learning what that next move is going to be. I have no doubt you will continue to serve. And I really hope you get a good break in the meantime. Deborah, it's been a true pleasure to speak to you here on Awake at Night.

 

Deborah Lyons 34:16

Thank you so much, Melissa. I've really enjoyed it and continue to support you and your great work.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:21

Thank you, Deborah. Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working to do some good in this world at a time of global crisis.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we¡¯re and I'm . Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please do take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Jen Thomas, Adam Paylor and the team at Purpose and to my colleagues at the UN: Roberta Politi, Katerina Kitidi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova and the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.