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A former judge, Catherine Marchi-Uhel has spent a lifetime pursuing justice. Now for atrocities and war crimes committed in the Syrian civil war, she finds comfort in survivors¡¯ resilience and their determination to move on with their lives.

¡°In Syria, I was really struck by this lack of revenge. I haven't seen many people wanting revenge. They want justice. And that's really a very powerful attitude.¡±

Since 2016, the UN¡¯s International, Impartial and Independent Mechanism () has been helping investigate and prosecute the most serious atrocities committed in Syria during the devastating conflict. In this episode, Catherine Marchi-Uhel reflects on the painstaking job of documenting brutality, the importance of preserving evidence, and how she keeps faith in the face of humanity¡¯s darkest crimes.

 

 

 

Multimedia and Transcript

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 10:11

But of course, the team is travelling around the world, including in the region, obviously. We have no access to Syria.

 

Melissa Fleming 10:20

But you have access to ¡­ 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 10:22

Countries around. 

 

Melissa Fleming 10:23

Countries around and many of the victims are¡­

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 10:25

Yes. 

 

Melissa Fleming 10:26

Refugees in these countries.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 10:29

In these countries, and also in other parts of the world of course now. Syrian refugees are everywhere. 

 

Melissa Fleming 10:38 

They're everywhere. I know, which is also one of the big tragedies of this war. Is there something during this war¡­? Before we move on to other parts of your life. Is there anything that has particularly, one particular crime that you've been looking into or a victim that has really stayed with you? And¡­

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 11:06

Well, there are many, but I would say probably crimes against children are those which are often the less visible. We know they exist. We mention them. When you read an article, newspaper article, they are mentioned. But they are often invisible. And a number of female victims as well are often less visible. They tend to be less interviewed for many reasons, but they also tend to suffer from other impacts of the crime than the crimes themselves. And this is with me, because I think if you want to build the future, you need to take those aspects into account. You need to give visibility to those traumas. And you also need to engage with those victims. 

But more than one victim in particular, I think I found the possibility of engaging directly with victim communities to speak about the work we do, to listen to them, understand their priorities. To sit with them, to let them know of the efforts we¡¯re taking. And when you have a situation like Syria where I mean there are tangible justice opportunities, but there are also many unknowns as to what will happen. So, you need to use that time also to share where you are, to explain the difficulties but also show the progresses. And you need to consult I think victims and survivors about some of the possibilities before you. We cannot seize every single opportunity with the same¡­ putting the same efforts in every of them. So, it's important to have that dialogue. It's empowering, I think, for victims and survivors to let them have a say in what the work that we're doing. Of course, we have to remain impartial, and independent. But it doesn't mean that there is no room for engagement.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:08 

I just wanted to circle back to¡­ You mentioned that children victims are something that really disturb you. Can you just describe what the war crimes that have been alleged and committed, how that has had an effect on children directly or indirectly.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 13:32

A number of children are being maimed or killed or suffer. Some of them have been tortured as well. Or they have been affected by attacks.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:49

Schools even attacked.

 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 13:51 

Schools have been attacked. The means of living of their families. They lost parents. They lost means of living. They lost opportunities to have a normal life. So, I think they are really the primary victims. Even, I mean, they are affected directly in a number of instances. And in the context of Syria, as you know, we have a number of allegations of unlawful attacks, including using means which are prohibited such as chemical weapons. Children are among those victims, right? 

So, there are the crimes that are directed to children. I'm thinking in particular of enrolling children into combatants, sending them to training camps, and then using them in hostilities. These are types of crimes which are targeting children particularly, but all the other crimes of which children are victims are also extremely serious crimes. And often we tend to¡­ We know it exists but if you're not looking specifically for evidence of crimes affecting children, the cases that you build won¡¯t reflect that, right? 

And it's not necessarily easy to do it because we need to make a dedicated effort. I will compare this - although there are many aspects that are different - with looking at gender-based crimes, right? If you don't look for it, you won't find it. So, you really need as a mechanism¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 15:28

Why is that?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 15:29

Because there is a tendency of looking first at¡­ of interviewing first male witnesses. That's a clear tendency. It¡¯s also a field - international criminal law - where you have many male investigators and often, they are not, or at least in the past, they were not necessarily so comfortable investigating sexual violence and other types of crime. And I think more than the gender of the participant in the accountability effort, it's more the approach that you take. If you decide that you want to have that understanding of violence that is not driven just by - I don't know, religion, political motivation - but that is driven by the gender or by the age of victims. 

If you are willing to look into the impact of gender-based crimes and crime against children, you're going to have to make a dedicated effort to do that. You're going to have to make sure that you recruit people who are trained to do that. You're going to have to make sure that when you develop an investigative plan this is part of the plan, right? And it has become almost part of your DNA as an investigator, as a lawyer, that you're going to include that in your assessment. And that's part of the approach we've taken the triple I.M. We have developed a gender strategy specifically for that. And we have developed and are still developing our approach on children. We engage with children and youth, Syrian children and youth, to start understanding their perspective. So, these approaches are taking time. Sometimes easier to do without that, but I think it's very important. That's why we say we¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 17:30

Certainly, especially with sexual violence in conflict. There's a lot of shame on the part of the women wanting to speak out.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 17:37

And men as well. Men have been a victim of it. 

 

Melissa Fleming 17:38

Men also. There have been reports of sexual violence against men as a weapon of war.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 17:46

This is very true but it's also very important to understand that there are also many crimes which are not sexual in nature but are motivated by the gender of the victim. Different treatment depending on the gender of the victim. One work we did recently, which is being shared with jurisdiction, was to look at the differentiated treatment of women, men, boys, and girls by members of the group Da¡¯esh. And it¡¯s¡­ There are very different approaches motivated by the ideology of the group, which has really targeted those different individuals with very different treatments.

 

Melissa Fleming 18:32

You mentioned Da¡¯esh a few times. That's Islamic State. They became a big factor in recent years in northern Syria. The kinds of crimes that you're looking at, can you describe them?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 18:47 

I mean the cases in Germany that we were talking about have been focusing a lot of them on the commission of genocide by the group against the Yazidi community.

 

Melissa Fleming 19:01

Beyond northern Iraq. It¡¯s also¡­

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 19:04

Yes. There are the parts of the crimes committed in Iraq, but then also women and children being brought into Syria since the group was operating on both sides of the border. And girls and their mothers being often turned into slavery, sexual slavery, but also domestic slavery. There have been a number of cases of looking at the particular treatment of those girls, and cases which led to convictions in Germany, and Sweden. We also see investigations and we've been contributing to that, which look at the discriminatory treatment of female but also male, boys, who are were subjected to specific treatment, sent to training camps, and forced into training and then fighting. And the girls of course, subject to the other treatments of slavery. And some of the girls have died. So, genocide on one hand when it comes to¡­ because of the willingness to destroy, in whole or in part, the Yazidi group but also crimes against humanity.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:41 

Is it frustrating to you that because of international disagreements on Syria there's not yet a tribunal to prosecute any cases that your organization, your mechanism prepares? Is that frustrating? 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 20:59 

It is frustrating that we have an International Criminal Court, which without the use of veto at the Security Council would have been seized of the Syrian situation. You could also have imagined, for a case as broad and as protracted than the Syrian situation, that maybe even a dedicated tribunal, as we had for the former Yugoslavia or Rwanda, could have been a solution. But this would have required, again, agreement at the political level at the Security Council level or a situation in Syria where the government is accepting that. So yes, it's frustrating. At the same time, even when all the conditions are met, you know, that this is a type of work that is taking time. So, it's frustrating, but it doesn't¡­ I'm not looking at the situation as, you know, set in time and in stone. It's an evolving situation. It's important that the information, the evidence is preserved. I'm personally hopeful that there will be at some stage, complement to the current efforts for a more comprehensive accountability for Syria. So, frustration, yes. But not to the point of disabling us to move forward. On the contrary I would say. 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 22:24

Do you think that justice always does come someday?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 22:29

I mean, not always. But in many situations, it does. And I think in the case of Syria, I think they are in movement. You're not going to stop it like this.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:38

What is keeping you awake at night?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 22:42

Yeah, the risk of not being sufficiently strong in our advocacy for justice. The fact of missing some opportunities. The fact of not being understood by victims and survivors as working for them. But I usually sleep well at night, because I put my energy in this work, a lot of it, and sleep is a way, as we spoke earlier, to help you cope with what you're dealing with. 

 

Melissa Fleming 23:19

You just collapse. 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 23:20

You collapse, indeed. 

 

Melissa Fleming 23:25

You have spent much of your career pursuing justice for war crimes. You have tried people for crimes relating to conflicts in Cambodia, and the former Yugoslavia. What drives you personally to do this?

 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 23:41 

I think in part it's part of something that happened to a friend of my family. I was still very, very young at the time. I think I was probably around 10 when I heard of what happened to a friend of my family who had been in concentration camps and victim of medical experiences. And that stuck with me for a while. At the time, I didn't know I would ever work in the law field, but I was really struck by that. I think the first time I heard of this kind¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 24:20

You met this friend. 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 24:21

Yes, I met this friend. He wasn't speaking about it himself. But I knew from his niece what had happened to him.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:27

So, he was in a Nazi concentration camp. 

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 24:30  

Yes, he was in Dachau.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:33

What happened to him?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 24:35

He was a victim of medical experiment. And I mean, he survived.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:39

The Mengele kind of¡­

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 24:41

Oh, yeah. I never asked very much detail but I know basically that¡¯s what happened to him. And that was the first time I was exposed to, you know, in my personal life to this kind of story. And I, of course, when I started thinking of what I could do as a career, I was not thinking of that. I was thinking of working in the law field. That was really something I was interested in also for personal reasons. And when I learned during the start of the Yugoslav situation that a tribunal was created to deal with atrocities, which I felt were very similar to what the Nazis had been doing, I thought it would be really an important thing for me to work in. And so, I initially I think I applied to the ICTY when I was working in more¡­ I was a judge in France and then I had worked in the area of human rights in France. And I applied to work at the ICTY. This didn't really work because probably I wasn't sufficiently¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 25:51

That¡¯s the International Criminal Tribunal¡­   

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 25:54

For the Former Yugoslavia. And then I had an opportunity to work for the UN in Bosnia during, just after the Dayton agreements were signed. And I did that for two years. And so, I was working on judicial reform, not directly on war crimes. And then I had the opportunity to work in Kosovo where the war had just ended. But there were a number of war crimes, crimes against humanity committed in Kosovo during that period. And I was part of the¡­ I was hired as an international judge there. So that's how I in fact started working on that. And of course, later I joined the Yugoslav tribunal and dealt with also crimes committed in Rwanda. I was not a judge there. I was a senior legal officer working in the chambers. And then I worked in Cambodia, indeed, as a judge in dealing with the Khmer Rouge crimes. So, it's been a bit of a natural¡­ Based on this interest mine, there's been a bit of a natural move into that area. And then¡­ 

 

Melissa Fleming 27:06

I mean, you could have stayed in France. What was it specifically about these war crimes? I mean, it must be really tough. I mean, Rwanda, the genocide of a million people.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 27:19

But I think those crimes are just concerning all of us as humans, right? They try to crush, to kill what's most important in humanity. So, you feel¡­ Yeah, I felt connected. I felt that it was important since I was a lawyer or judge, depending on which part of my career, that it was an area where I could be of use. I'm really glad to have had that opportunity. You know, it's small steps that you do. You can¡¯t do it on your own. It's part of a team. It's part of an entity, an institution, but it's rewarding [inaudible]. In fact, even if it's¡­ You were asking about the frustration. It's less the frustration than the feeling of, you know, it's often a drop in the ocean. There are so many crimes that you can't address. But what you do if you do it well, if you do it with the intent of helping victims to get justice, I think it's rewarding.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 28:22

I wonder sometimes, do you lose faith in humanity when you hear about the crimes committed?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 28:30

No, I don't. Because I think in spite of all this, these atrocities, they are always individuals who are, you know, giving you faith. So, yeah, I mean, it's clearly the dark side of humanity, but there are better sides to it. And in these terrible moments you always have people who manage to show the humanity and you also¡­ You get the courage from the victims when you see that are still trying to, you know, bring their life together, move forward. And in the case of Syria, I was really struck by this lack of revenge. I haven't seen many people wanting revenge. They want justice. And that's really a very powerful attitude.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:26

It is. It's a certain form of resilience, I guess.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 29:30

Yeah, so many people get stuck into what happened to them and just they can't, you know¡­ I'm not saying everyone wants to forgive, but it's empowering to decide that you're not just going to be a victim. You're going to help bringing justice. I think it's a very empowering attitude. It's not easy, but it's reassuring you in humanity.

 

Melissa Fleming 30:02

What does your family say about what you do for a living?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 30:07

I think they probably wonder why I spend so much time in those horrific situations. But as I said, I think they have been very important for me as making sure that I have beside this part of my life, which was taking a lot of time, very, you know, very good moments where we're all together and we are¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 30:30

You have children?

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 30:31

I don't have children myself, but I have... I live with a family who has children, and we have grandchildren. So, in a way, technically, I¡¯m not a grandmother but it's like.

 

Melissa Fleming 30:43

Catherine, thank you very much for this interview.

 

Catherine Marchi-Uhel 30:47

Thank you, Melissa. Thanks a lot for listening to me.

 

Melissa Fleming 30:53

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, Carlos Macias and the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.