51³Ô¹Ï

 

 

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 00:00
When you are in those remote locations, very high risk, you hear the explosions around you. You don't do that if it's not necessary, if it's not critical, if it's not purposeful. And I think when we¡­ The people who have remained in these areas, when we meet with them and they see the support, that's when you feel that it is worth it.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:40
From the 51³Ô¹Ï, I'm Melissa Fleming. And my guest this week is Karolina Lindholm Billing, the Representative of the UN Refugee Agency in Ukraine. Karolina, just a question because I understand you were assigned to Ukraine before the war started.

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 01:06
Yeah. Yes. I didn't apply for this.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:09
You didn't? It must have been quite shocking for you. And having to adjust your mandate and your role and I assume to very much expand. I know that you've been travelling and responding to needs all over the country. And what is like the worst hit areas that you have seen?

 

 

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 01:34
Well, I do indeed travel a lot, and this is very, very important for me to see myself firsthand what, you know, the impact on ordinary people, their lives, their homes, their futures, their plans, their livelihoods are. Among the most difficult have been in Kherson region, for example. I mean, I was... In early July, I was both in again for the second time in Kherson City, but also in a hromada in a location called Bilozerka, which is not only very, very close to the front line, but it was also flooded when the Kakhovka dam was destroyed. And in the villages, there the water rose to over three and a half metres high.

And there it was terrible because I met some of the people who had not only lived with shelling, with hostilities, with attacks for more than a year, but then on top of that their homes had been completely flooded. You know, one of the people I met was Sasha, a man who was... His house had completely collapsed from the weight of the water when his home and the neighbourhood was flooded. And now he was standing there with the help of volunteers, some being neighbours, a few people who had actually travelled from western Ukraine to Bilozerka to help people like Sasha just start the recovery from the impact. And they were now working on just clearing, sweeping, you know, the ground. And he said, 'I'm now... I have to build a new house before the winter.'

 

Melissa Fleming 03:25
You said that there had been shelling for over a year. These are people who decided to stay. They¡¯re at the front lines and then this horrific flood. When you arrived at the scene, I mean, what did the scene look like?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 03:37
The water had now receded, but you could really tell that, you know, it had been flooded. So for example, I also visited several homes where, you know, these are houses built on clay ground where, you know, the floor, the walls were all kind of destroyed because they had been under water or immersed in water for weeks while the water was receding. The smell was still there from the sewage and the... Like this Sasha, who was clearing, it was... You know, it was just a flat ground on which his house had stayed. He explained he had lived there since 1992. He had built the house himself. There was nothing left of the house except the rubble on the side. And then you had several houses along the same street that both had signs of shelling and shrapnel on the walls and destroyed windows. But also this... Yeah. How when water, you know, just immerses your house and the walls. How... Yeah, it looks like mould and, you know, yeah, it looked horrible.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:04
So many people, millions of people have fled and made that decision to leave their homes. But you went to this place where despite the shelling, despite the flooding, despite this horrific condition of their homes or complete destruction, they're staying. Why is that? What did they tell you about why?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 05:26
This we see a lot that people leave as a last resort. If you can stay, you choose to stay. I hear so many people saying that and see it as well. Even those who flee within the country because it becomes unbearable to stay in their homes because of the danger to their lives and to their homes. More often, try to then flee within the country, but remain close to their homes. Yes, some go to the far west of Ukraine. Places like Lviv, Mukachevo, and Chernivtsi, but many choose to stay close to their homes. And it's because your home is your home. And it's not only your house that you have built maybe yourself or you have bought with money you have saved and earned, and you made it into your own safe home. But it's also your land and your roots, your community. And that living in displacement somewhere where you have to start new is very, very difficult emotionally, economically. And it's also the unknown. So people, if they can, many stay where they have their homes. And we also see that it's return to your home as soon as it's felt to be safe to do so.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 07:08
You mentioned these volunteers. I've read about them. They're volunteers from Ukraine who go where houses have been destroyed and help to rebuild them. Tell me about them.

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 07:22
They are incredible. And this, you know when the full-scale invasion started, it was really volunteers that came out. Ordinary people, neighbours. I remember in the west of Ukraine in Lviv, where I stayed for a few weeks before returning to Kyiv, professors from a university who were cooking meals for IDPs, internally displaced people who had fled and were now sleeping on mattresses on the floor in a dormitory. And they were cooking meals there in the canteen for everyone who came on evacuation trains from the east with just the clothes on their bodies. This has continued to be something that has kind of signified the Ukraine response, that volunteers from all areas of the society have helped people who have been directly impacted by the war. And they¡¯re cooking meals, giving clothing, giving money, opening their homes. There is also a programme called Prykhystok, where Ukrainian families are hosting internally displaced people in their own homes.

 

Melissa Fleming 08:39
So it seems like everybody is doing something, is contributing some way.

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 08:44
Yeah, it's truly a whole of society response and support.

 

Melissa Fleming 08:49
When disaster strikes, you try to get to those front lines and to do what you can to help. Could you just describe, you know, what kind of help can UN organizations provide and also UNHCR.

 

 

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 09:03
So in this the priority, first priority for the humanitarian response, it's to assist people living in these front-line communities in the east and south of the country that are feeling the hostilities and the shelling every day. So what we provide is, for example, emergency shelter material so that people whose homes have been damaged, windows broken, a hole in the roof, a hole in the wall, can quickly cover these up to prevent, you know, rain, wind from coming into their home and also destroying people's belongings there. We also provide non-food items. Many of the people have had, you know, all their mattresses, their blankets, their beds, their kitchens destroyed. So it's these basic items that people need now because they... Yeah, it's been destroyed or IDPs that have fled without anything but the clothes they are wearing who need these basic items.

Cash assistance is another because when you have lost your job, you've had to flee and you need money to pay for hygiene items, medicines, pay rent. This cash assistance is a contribution to help you pay for those basic needs. We work with many partners in this response and the UN agencies, but also the volunteer organizations, the NGOs. They provide different types of support. So UNICEF provides bottled water, for example, to people who were affected by the Kakhovka dam destruction, WFP - food support and so on. So it's that emergency humanitarian aid to people on the front lines.

But what is also very important for UNHCR as a protection agency is, for example, legal aid to help people recover lost documents because many people lost their ID documents, or they haven't been able to register births of their children or even deaths of their loved ones to get death certification. So one of our programmes is to provide free legal aid so people can restore their basic documents in order to then identify themselves when they seek help with the social services or the administrative services. This is key for their own protection. And so many people who have now had their homes destroyed or damaged, who need property documents in order to apply for compensation and assistance to repair those damages. That's a huge request for free legal aid to help get your documents, because in Ukraine many people don't have this because of the way properties have been inherited. And then we provide that aid so you can then apply for the compensation and get the assistance you need to repair your home.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 12:33
I haven't kept track of the huge number who fled across borders and your colleagues in the neighbouring countries are there assisting them. But you mentioned that many of them have decided to come back and you're there on the other end trying to help them navigate and get their properties back. And what are they telling you about why they chose to come back when the war is still raging and parts of Ukraine that they're returning to are still highly dangerous?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 13:07
Missing home. I think that's one of the key reasons why people want to come back. Despite the continuation of the war and continued threat to their life and well-being is because they have missed home, and they want to come home and they miss their families. They miss their communities. And that outweighs the risks that living in a country at war still presents to them. And for example, one of the programmes that we are delivering as UNHCR is... It's a pilot with a Ukrainian private company that produces prefabricated houses. The company is called QHome. And these are 25-square-metre houses that are made by Ukrainian workers, Ukrainian material here in Kyiv, and it's delivered to the land of people whose houses have been completely destroyed. We've just done 100 of these so far.

And what the people¡­ I visited several of them, these families who have received it. And they say the possibility to come back and live on your own soil, your own ground, your own land, next to your own garden where you have your flowers and you're planting your vegetables. You know, they say, 'This is so important for our recovery and our kind of hope for the future.¡¯ Even if next to this prefabricated home is, you know, the rubble sometime still what remains of their completely destroyed house. They say that it's still... it's better to be on your own land than to live maybe in a collective centre as a displaced person or in a rented apartment in a city far away. So that feeling of, yeah, being home in your physical home, in your emotional home, in your roots, is¡­ Yeah, it's I think also what makes people still remain in front-line areas even though they are at risk of losing their lives every single day.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 15:50
And maybe those very homes being destroyed again. I see you when you were describing being able to deliver this kind of material. I saw you smiling because generally in these big emergencies with so many people in need, what UNHCR can provide, as you mentioned, were these kinds of plastic sheets to cover windows and temporary fixes. But this seems more permanent. I mean, how did you feel when you were able to deliver a more permanent feeling home for people to rebuild?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 16:25
Then it feels like¡­ that it's a more meaningful contribution, that it's something that contributes to starting that process of recovery. Because what I've seen so clearly during these last 600 plus days of the war in Ukraine is how quickly people want to recover. You know, in Ukraine, you have the war is ongoing and every single day there are people being killed and injured and maimed and homes destroyed, and schools destroyed or damaged. Plus, you have all those millions of people internally displaced who are feeling every day the kind of prolonged impact of not being able to live in their own house and go to their old job and the kids being in the old school but having to live somewhere else and pay the rent and find a job and get to know a new community. But then next to... Side by side with all of this, you have this incredible determination to quickly recover.

Like, I came back to Kyiv on the 13th of April 2022 from six weeks or so in Lviv. And, you know, the city was almost deserted when I came back. It was really eerie and very few people there. But just within a few days, a week, two weeks, three weeks started to see how people were coming back to Kyiv to their homes and finding, I mean, the huge... How sad it was to see, find their homes destroyed or damaged, windows broken, and things turned upside down in, you know, in their homes, in their living rooms, in their bedrooms, in kitchens. But almost immediately taking up a kind of broom and sweeping away the glass from the floor, covering the windows with this wooden plywood that you cover the windows and clearing, kind of clearing the rubble from what could be saved and rescued and immediately starting that process of recovery.

So I... And this I see every single day in Ukraine. So when we can be a little enabler of that recovery, I think that feels meaningful because the people I meet here, they are so incredibly strong and brave and determined, and I have such respect and admiration for them. And they don't need us to assist them. I think what they need is some enabling support to recover those documents that were, you know, burned in the fire when their house was attacked or destroyed when the house was flooded because of the Kakhovka dam destruction. Or they need that enabling support to repair those windows and that roof so they can move back into their own home. That's what I think we are here for, you know, enabling that recovery and people's ability to regain that protection and dignity and ability to get back and live their life on their own again like they used to do before this horrible war.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 20:36
I mean, I'm wondering... I mean, you have worked in many crisis-hit areas around the world throughout your career. What is it about Ukraine that has particularly shocked you?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 20:50
To really see first-hand the very raw and fresh scars and destructions - you know, physical, mental, environmental - caused by a war. And how horrific war is and how it destroys the lives and the security and the futures and dreams of just ordinary people who were living their lives in peace with no need for humanitarian assistance before the war. And now they are all of a sudden in need and vulnerable. And also that my colleagues... I mean, the majority of my colleagues are Ukrainians. They are also very much directly affected and victims of this invasion and war. And I have colleagues who have been displaced two times or three times. Colleagues who fled from Donetsk or Luhansk in 2014 to, for example, Mariupol and now had to flee again. Many, many of my colleagues are displaced themselves or they have family members abroad. Some haven't seen their wives and their children for a year or even more.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 22:30
Because their family members are refugees and they stayed behind.

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 22:34
Yes. Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:34
To work. I mean, you and your colleagues from the other agencies travel very often to the front lines and try to help people. You mentioned that's the primary focus of your work. How dangerous is it for you?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 22:51
We go to these very high-risk areas which are within just a kilometre or a few kilometres from the front line. And when we are there, often we hear, we see, yeah, the shelling and the attacks. So there is a risk, of course. We mitigate it by having when we go so close, then we go in armoured vehicles. But of course we are there to deliver assistance and as a protection agency we also are there to try and speak with people who will still remain there or who are there from the local authorities. So there is that risk and there have been humanitarian workers who have been killed or injured during the past year and a half plus. And this is always the biggest, or one of the biggest challenges in humanitarian work that where the security situation is the worst that's where the needs are the greatest and our assistance is most needed. So to find this balance where you are relevant for those people who are living in the greatest need, in the greatest security risk without putting yourself, your staff, your colleagues at an what we call unacceptable risk. It's one of the most difficult decisions I feel I take in my work.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 24:39
Do you ever get frightened?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 24:41
Yes, I do. When you are in those remote locations, very high risk, you hear the explosions around you. You're then often very far away from that safety. Yes, it is¡­ But then I think of, you know, that to put yourself at that risk is because you're doing something which is really purposeful. You don't do that if it's not necessary, if it's not critical, if it's not purposeful. And I think when we... The people who have remained in these areas, when we meet with them, and they see the support and you hear from them that the appreciation and that they are not forgotten and that you make the effort to go there. That's when you feel that it is worth it.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:50
I wonder if... I mean, it must be very worrying for your family. I believe you have children too. Do they worry about you? And how do you reassure them that you're going to be all right?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 26:04
They were worried in the beginning. You know, we moved to Ukraine together as a family from Lebanon. And they were here with me the first six, seven months before they had to leave Ukraine, evacuate in mid-February. And, of course, those first weeks and months of the war when it was constantly on the news and the pictures, and the images were very dramatic. And there were days when I didn't have... we didn't have time to talk because we literally worked around the clock. And the situation was so volatile. Then I think they were worried when I was still in Kyiv. And now I think they don't follow the news so closely on Ukraine, which I am happy with because they don't need to see everything.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 27:18
But what do they think about having a mom who works for UNHCR? I mean, I guess they were with you, and they understand what the work is.

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 27:30
For them, I think they have... Because they have lived with me, we've lived together in five different countries, and they've seen...

 

Melissa Fleming 27:41
Which ones were those? I mean, so they were babies where?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 27:45
So, well, they were born in Geneva when I was working at our headquarters. Then we were in Zambia. Then we had a few years in Stockholm where we have a regional office covering the Nordic and Baltic countries. Then in Lebanon. And then in Ukraine. So they have moved around and seen what the work means. But they were... You know, they loved Ukraine. They were very happy in Kyiv. And it was a great, you know, place for us to be as a family with teenagers, especially after quite challenging years in Lebanon with COVID, online schooling for a year and a half, the explosion and so on. And then they were very happy. Had made new friends here, started a new school. And then they had to leave and do online schooling from Sweden, with their classmates, you know, from the school in Ukraine spread out across the world.

So I think they understand what the work means. But of course, it's a huge contribution for them to live separated from their mom. And yeah, this wasn't our plan. But when something like this war happens to people and our humanitarian mission is so... it appears in front of you. You stay with the people who then need you to be there and with your colleagues who are so shocked and devastated and impacted. So I think as a family, we never discussed whether I should stay or leave, try to leave Ukraine and together with them. That was not a discussion. But of course, it's a huge sacrifice or a huge pain also to be away from your family.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 30:09
I'm sure. I'm sure it is. And at least you can go visit them, right?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 30:13
Yes, exactly.  I can do that. And you know, we can call each other. We can visit each other and... I think they... I hope they understand that it's for a purposeful reason. It's because the mission that I am here to serve together with an amazing team of colleagues is beyond just the job. Otherwise, I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't live separated from them if it wasn't because I so much believed in our protection mission as that enabler.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:11
What is keeping you awake at night these days?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 31:15
Well, in Ukraine it is air raid alarms still keep us very much awake. In many of the places I go to - Dnipro, Kharkiv - it's almost every night. And you know, when you are woken up by those, you know, the thought is always, you know, 'I hope we will survive this night.' You know, and feeling that when I say we survive, I really mean all of us, the people living in Ukraine. Because the attacks often happen during night. And not all people... You know, there are people who die during these attacks. So that's what keeps me awake.

 

Melissa Fleming 32:08
Is there anything that gives you hope?

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 32:11
Yes, there is really. And that seeing this incredible solidarity that, you know, we talked about the volunteers in Ukraine, ordinary people who are opening their homes and opening their kitchens and, you know, their hearts to people, and around the world. That gives me hope that there is the caring compassion, but also seeing how incredibly strong and determined people are to get up and recover and look forward and not to give up. That gives me a lot of hope. That's what also gives us the energy, I think, to continue working. And in this ultra marathon of a response that the people we meet, and for me very much the colleagues I work with, they're incredible. You know, professionalism and hard work and dedication gives me a lot of hope and energy to continue working.

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 33:30
There is so much humanity out there even though it is so ugly in the field of war and in the awful dark fog of war. Karolina, thank you so much for joining me from Kyiv. And I wish you all the best. And please take care.

 

Karolina Lindholm Billing 33:49
Thank you. Thank you very much, Melissa.

 

Melissa Fleming 33:54
Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, and Bissera Kostova and the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.