51³Ô¹Ï

 

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

Can you sleep at night knowing that right now in the 21st century more than 300 million people are facing hunger?

 

[00:00:08] Arif Husain

We want people to scream at the top of their lungs saying, enough is enough. We as humanity will not tolerate this regardless of what and where it is happening. It's just not right if you are hurting women, children, innocent people.

 

[00:00:43] Melissa Fleming

Arif Husain is Chief Economist at the World Food Programme. He told me what famine means. From the 51³Ô¹Ï, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night.

 

 

 

[00:01:04] Arif Husain

Famine is something which is the worst anyone can ever experience. When we are doing this work, we try to put people in different classes. We call that IPC Integrated Phase Classification, which is our method of putting people into categories depending on how much they have available to eat, depending on what is their nutrition situation, depending on what is their health situation. And famine is the last stop on this scale of five.

So, first scale, IPC Phase 1, meaning everything is fine. People are doing well. We don't have to worry about it. Phase 2 - there is a little bit of stress. People are a little bit worried about their food, but not that big of a deal. And then we get into the bigger issues and that's IPC Phase 3, which is crisis. And then comes the next one, which is IPC Phase 4, which is emergency. This is the last stop to famine because famine is IPC Phase 5. This is when people are literally starving.

And the... Melissa, the problem today is that we are working in about 70 plus countries operationally speaking. In those countries, there are over 300 million people who are in crisis or worst level of food insecurity, of hunger. Just four years ago, before COVID, this number was only 135 million. So, what we are seeing around the world is that the level, the scale of hunger has more than doubled in just four years. Sitting in the 21st century when we are talking about going to Mars and, you know, working on the moon, we've got people right here on the earth starving to death. We are declaring famines in 21st century. How? I don't... You know, it bothers me. This shouldn't happen. This just is ramping up as we speak.

 

[00:03:30] Melissa Fleming

And that is just an unfathomable number. And I believe there is enough food theoretically to go around to feed the world. What are these factors that have doubled the number of people who are in this desperate state in just four years?

 

 

 

[00:03:48] Arif Husain

You know, there is no shortage of food in the world. We frankly produce enough to feed everybody and then some while wasting a third of that. So, to say that there is not enough food is plain wrong. But what we do have is three types of reasons why people starve.

The biggest one - wars, conflicts. I was looking at this. I was looking at numbers and started looking from 1946 right after the end of World War II till 2023. So, from 1946 to 2012, we had 39 major conflicts. From 2012 to 2023, just 10-11 years, we had 20 more. Right? And when we look at our numbers, this 300 million which I mentioned, 65% of that, meaning 265,000 people live in fragile and conflict affected places. So, conflict - number one. We don't solve conflict. We don't solve hunger.

Second - climate. People think droughts kill more people. No, it's floods. It's storms. Today we have more displacements. In 2023, 23 million people were displaced because of climate-related effects.

And then the third one is economics. We got... People say international prices of food, international prices of fertilizer, of energy are down so life should be good. Well, it's not that simple. Why? Because food inflation, inflation is still up. Debt is still high. Interest rates are still high. My currencies are depreciating. Am I in trouble? Yes. And, you know, Melissa the problem is that in most places, in most countries where we work it's not only conflict, it's not only climate, it's not only economics. It's all of them together. And that is the state of our world again in the 21st century.

And for me, the other thing, which is really, really, really painful is that this is happening on our watch. This is happening in front of our eyes. So, if we know, then what are we doing about it? And this is where we are failing. We are seeing it, but we are desensitized to it. We are not acting on what we are seeing. We are not saying, enough is enough. And we are... It's not happening in one place. It's Sudan. It's Gaza. It's Lebanon. It's Yemen. It's the Central Africa... You know, it's a big list of countries where these things are happening.

 

[00:07:16] Melissa Fleming

All right, Arif. But maybe if I can take a little issue with what you just said, because when you say 'we.' The UN has been calling this out for years and years. WFP won the Nobel Peace Prize for not just its work feeding the hungry, but also calling for change. You yourself have called for... So, when you mean 'we', are you referring to the leaders of the world who are failing to stop wars, to prevent wars, to address climate change?

 

[00:07:50] Arif Husain

That's absolutely right. Because this is the collective 'we'. Melissa, the problems we are talking about, no one entity can solve them. We have to all come together. Our leaders need to call this out as loud as possible and say, 'Enough is enough.' And in not one place, in several places. I'll give you an example. My career started in Sudan. My first crisis was Darfur. This was back in 2003. It started 2004, 2005, 2006. And this crisis became the poster child of humanitarians. People took to the cause. People like George Clooney were out there saying, 'No, no, this cannot happen.' Right? Right now, we are in a situation which is a lot worse in Sudan. We have declared a famine in places in Sudan particularly in Darfur. Where is the outrage on that?

 

[00:09:01] Melissa Fleming

What does famine actually look like? Have you met a child who is suffering from famine? Could you just describe that condition.

 

[00:09:13] Arif Husain

You know I wish I could say I've just seen this in one place. No, I've seen it in many places. I've seen it in Sudan. I've seen in Yemen. I've seen it elsewhere. Basically, you have heard the expression 'skin and bones.' That's the children. Imagine if children are in that state, where are the parents of those children? Because as a parent, you will do anything and everything for your child. So, when you see these children in the way that they are. I mean, you know, skin and bones, swollen bellies. No light in their eyes. Staring in the void. No response to tickle on the feet. That scares you.

And then you have to live with that. You dream about that. You see that. And then you have to come back, and you have to¡­ You must talk about that. Because it is, again, on your watch. You know, I tell my colleagues, especially the younger ones, I say, 'You know, as humanitarians our jobs that are bigger than us.' 'So, what do you mean?' 'So, look, when we don't do our job, people die.' And you see it. If you're in the private sector and you don't do your job, you lose money. We don't do our job, we lose people. So, every time you feel like you don't have to do 100 plus percent, just think about that.

 

 

 

[00:11:09] Melissa Fleming

I hear the pleas of Cindy McCain, your Executive Director, of all the leadership of WFP over and over again. 'If you give us the funding, we can feed those children.'

 

[00:11:25] Arif Husain

Thank you for saying that, Melissa, because this is what I say to people, that if you want humanitarians to be doing their jobs, you need two things. One - access. To be able to regularly and safely reach the people who need assistance. And two - money to provide that assistance. Every time that we have had those, regardless of the place, we have averted famines. Even in Gaza. But also, please remember that when that stops, people fall back into the same thing. Since December 2023, 90% of the population in Gaza has been in crisis or worst level of situations.

 

[00:12:22] Melissa Fleming

Is there anything comparable to what's happening in Gaza? Or how do you assess the situation?

 

[00:12:29] Arif Husain

I can honestly tell you I have never seen anything worse than this. Just because it is a small place. A lot of people in that small place. Everybody is displaced several times. I haven't seen that. I've seen displacement, but I haven't seen multiple displacement of the entire population. I haven't seen this level of death of innocent women, innocent children. I haven't seen this kind of destruction where everything is a wasteland. I haven't seen the fear in people's eyes for their children. I haven't seen a loss of generation without any sense of what will happen.

And when you combine all of this, the mega effect of this, not only today, but tomorrow, it's unprecedented. I don't know¡­ At least in near history, let me just put it that way. Maybe things have happened in the past, but in near history, I don't know of any place which has experienced that type of devastation in that small area as a population, as a percent of population. Let's stop the fighting. Let's stop the war, because till the war is there, you know, innocents will pay the price, are paying the price. So again, the sooner this war comes to end, the better it is for everybody. Until we get to that day, we need to help people reach that day by providing them with food, with medicine, with water, and with hope.

 

[00:14:45] Melissa Fleming

There is another war that is creating mass displacement. I think it's something like 8 million in Sudan in terms of internally displaced and refugees and a hunger situation. And in Darfur, the potential for famine. So, can you talk about how you feel about what's going on in Sudan?

 

 

[00:15:07] Arif Husain

Yeah, Sudan, my God. Sudan will always be close to my heart because this is where I started my... This is where I learned humanitarian business. My first job in WFP was in Sudan, 2003 to 2006. So, I was totally green coming from the World Bank, Washington, DC to Khartoum, Sudan. And my first crisis was Darfur. Right? So, I learned all of this the hard way. Sink or swim. But I can tell you in 2003 or 2004, 2005, access was way better than it is today in Darfur. In one day, I would start from either Geneina or Nyala, and between a helicopter and a plane, I could make it through all three. To [El] Fasher in the North, Geneina in the South and Nyala in the middle.

Another story. I have to tell you this. This was in North Darfur. We were on an assessment mission looking at food security of people in North Darfur. And we drove into a city called Tawila which was under an ambush at that time. We got into the city. We were surprised to see them, and they were surprised to see us. So, they brought their guns up. Like, you know, we are in the cars, and they bring their guns up. We put our hands up. And we just drove slowly, slowly, slowly drove out. Okay. I was wondering if that had happened today, would it be the same case? No, I wouldn't be here talking to you.

 

[00:17:08] Melissa Fleming

That was the day when humanitarians were somehow protected by their white vehicles. They were considered off limits to warring parties. And that has changed.

 

[00:17:21] Arif Husain

So that was the difference then. So, you could go, and you didn't have to worry about somebody is going to kill you. Right? For WFP at that time, that was the biggest operation. Okay? People even in Midwest, Minnesota, I would go there. They would ask me, 'How are things in Darfur?'

 

[00:17:50] Melissa Fleming

It was covered in the news.

 

[00:17:51] Arif Husain

It was covered in the news. George Clooney was out there. Others were out there, and they were talking about it. And this was like everybody knew what was happening in Darfur and we must do something. And we did something. And we saved lots of lives. And we helped lots of people. That very same place today, 25 million people are in IPC Phase 3, meaning a crisis level of hunger. Almost a million people in IPC Phase 5. We already spoke about how many displaced to Chad and internally.

Today we see more. Right? Because we have the tools to see. So, we know more in terms of what is happening. But we're still not acting enough. Why? Because resources, because access. And we want people to scream at the top of their lungs saying, enough is enough. We as humans, as humanity will not tolerate this regardless of what and where it is happening. It's just not right if you are hurting women, children, innocent people whose only fault is that they are there at the wrong time.

 

[00:19:31] Melissa Fleming

I also wanted to ask you, because I understand it was partly due to your work that starvation has been designated as a war crime. Can you tell me why that is important to you?

 

 

[00:19:44] Arif Husain

So, thank you for saying that. I mean... I think you know that there are moments in people's lives, right? So, one moment in my life was the 2011 famine in Somalia. And the reason why I say that is because I was a [inaudible] officer, food security officer, you know, and we were seeing all of this happening. And the bad things, really, really, really bad things started to happen like in October of 2010. Okay? And we as assessments we raised the concern that this is going on and we need to do something about it. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. All right. Okay. Long story short, in that famine, 260,000 people died, according to Johns Hopkins and Tufts, I think. Half of those people died before famine was declared. And most of us said, 'Never again.' So, this is always stuck in our head. And it's like...

Then you fast forward to 2016, 2017, and there was a big, four country issue where bad things were happening in South Sudan, in northeast Nigeria, in Somalia and in Yemen. And this is when I was like front and centre on these issues. And I think a lot of this, not just because of me, but more because of the Organization and the Scandinavians and others, played out into a 2417 Resolution. To make that a war crime, to pass that 2417 Resolution.

So, it was this, again, this collective thing. And this is why I keep pushing this. This was this collective thing. No, this cannot happen. It happened in 2011. We are not going to let this happen again. And we said, 'We need something which is a resolution against which we can call things out when they happen.' This was the essence of 2417 that you report to the Security Council, not WFP, but SG [Secretary-General] reports to the Security Council when something is seen as... When food is being used as a weapon of war. That was the power.

 

[00:22:44] Melissa Fleming

I bet the Nobel Prize Committee was thinking about this also when they awarded in 2020 the World Food Programme with the Nobel Prize. I wonder how you felt when you heard that announcement.

 

[00:23:00] Arif Husain

Very happy and thankful to God, really. Yeah, somebody was listening, you know. Because, you know, Melissa, power of voice. When you see it, you must call it. And I think we cannot lose that. We need to call things out because if we don't, then there's no stopping. Why should¡­? And the indifference kills more people than the actual bullets. And I don't want to be... I don't want to be... I want to call out when I see something not right and be fair. Always be fair. And I've done this...

And I will tell you also why. Food security, hunger, they're very intimate things. We go out there. I've spoken to women who were raped the night before. I've spoken to children who have¡­ parents of children who have died in front of them. And they look at you. You come there. You get out of your white car. You start asking questions. They know where you're coming from. They know what you can give them. So, they start answering in a very mechanical way. Right? And it's like, 'Okay, yeah. Yeah, I'm hungry. Yes, I need food. Yes, I have nothing. Yes. Yeah.' But if you just take a little bit more time and you just say, 'Okay, okay, I know you need that. I know. But tell me, really what happened. Why did this happen? How did this happen? Who did it? What would be the three most important things you need right now? What are the three most important things maybe six months from now?'

And you suddenly see this change in [their] eyes. And it becomes like that's when you start asking. You cannot go back to your data and just say, 'But this is my data.' No, you have your data, and you have their testimony, and you combine the two and then you can talk and tell their story almost in their own words. And I have tried to do this in my career, and those who work with me know that it is not only... You cannot be mechanical about something as personal as food, as personal as life.

 

 

 

[00:25:57] Melissa Fleming

I wonder, you know, how did you get to this point? I know you're a dual Pakistani and American citizen, and I understand that you grew up in a very international life, that your father was a diplomat.

 

[00:26:12] Arif Husain

Yeah. So, my father was born in India. This is before partition. Then when partition happened between India and Pakistan. So, he moved to Pakistan, and he was one of the founders or first members of the Foreign Service of Pakistan. And then he... I mean, you know... So as a diplomat, then he moved so one of my brothers, he was born in India. Another brother, me, I was born in Kenya because he was assigned there. And then I lived in... Well, Kenya, I was born in. I lived in Iran. I lived in Iraq. And then unfortunately, we had a car accident in which my father passed away. And I was about five and a half years old. And we were hosted by King Hussein of Jordan when the accident happened. So, we stayed there for six months. And this royal family was so great that they would take me to the palace every single day of those six months. And I used to play with King Abdullah because...

 

[00:27:30] Melissa Fleming

You were the same age?

 

[00:27:31] Arif Husain

He's a maybe a couple of years older than I am. But, you know, just to say, I mean, you know how life turns, right?

 

[00:27:40] Melissa Fleming

I guess that eased the pain somewhat, but it must have been very traumatic that your dad died when you were only five.

 

[00:27:47] Arif Husain

I think in my life, yeah. Some tragedy struck very... I lost, obviously, my father very young. Then I lost my mother when I was 21. But I was blessed because I always had good people around me. And that has continued. I'm always surrounded by decent people who call...

 

[00:28:12] Melissa Fleming

You have your own family yourself?

 

[00:28:13] Arif Husain

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've... My wife, I met her in Sudan. She is my anchor. Then we have two kids [inaudible] 16 and 15 years old.

 

[00:28:29] Melissa Fleming

That sounds like they have Swedish names.

 

[00:28:32] Arif Husain

Common names, because my wife is from New Zealand, so we always tried to have names which will go in all cultures. And she works for WFP also. The funny thing is I tell people, you know this.... Tell something unique about you. 'So, like, you know what? I connect to five continents.' 'What do you mean?' I say, 'Well, I was born in Africa. Okay. Asian parents. Okay. I grew up in the US. Okay. Children born in Europe. Okay. And a wife from New Zealand.' Covered. And I work for the UN.

 

[00:29:16] Melissa Fleming

And you work for the UN.

 

[00:29:18] Arif Husain

So I'm my father's son.

 

[00:29:21] Melissa Fleming

You're your father's son. I'm sure he would be so proud of you.

 

[00:29:25] Arif Husain

Thank you.

 

[00:29:26] Melissa Fleming

What is keeping you most awake at night these days?

 

 

 

[00:29:31] Arif Husain

You know. I think the struggle to know and not see enough being done about it. And I don't mean enough done by WFP or UN or somebody else altogether. And for me as humanity, what we see today in terms of misery, in terms of pain, in terms of suffering, in several, several places in this world, and just saying, 'It's okay. Let it be.' And not getting out in front of it and saying, 'No, enough is enough. This will not fly.' That keeps me up. I still remember the moment... I am sure you will remember this. There was the Syrian child who washed up on a beach in T¨¹rkiye. And that shook the conscience of humanity. And Syrian refugees after that had a different entry point than before that. We need a moment like that today. It is long overdue. We need that shake up of our humanity saying, 'Wait a second, was I asleep when this was happening? How did I let this happen?' And that bothers the hell out of me. Sorry, Melissa. It really does.

 

[00:31:32] Melissa Fleming

I know, because we do... I really like that. We need a shakeup of humanity because the solutions are there. What's holding us back is people who go to war and do not understand the urgency of addressing climate change. So, in the meantime, you will keep, I'm sure, persisting with your wonderful colleagues at WFP. I wonder, do you have any message for people, young economists, perhaps like you once were, thinking about working in this field?

 

[00:32:14] Arif Husain

Yeah, very straightforward. If you want things to be meaningful to you, get out of the classroom. Learn what you have in the classroom, but then apply. And if it works, great. If not, don't be shy to reject it. Don't be shy to say, 'No, this doesn't work. I need something different.' And guess what? If you're not going to provide it, I'm going to make it myself. So, you... That is one.

And the second thing, this interview may sound hopeless, but never lose hope. And if I had to give one example of that is right before World War II, five of our G7 countries were in ruins. Italy where I stay. France, UK, Germany, Japan, these are today's G7 richest countries of the world. So, is there hope? Yes. Is there hope for these countries which are in trouble right now? Yes. But we need to come together to bring that hope to fruition. We live in a globalized world like it or not.

 

[00:33:50] Melissa Fleming

Well, let's hold on to that hope, Arif. And it's been really wonderful talking to you for this podcast and thank you so much for taking part.

 

[00:34:01] Arif Husain

Thank you so much, Melissa. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it.

 

[00:34:06] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, and Carlos Macias. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.